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Main - General MFN Discussion

Re: Fix Tackling

By jgcruz
6/04/2016 10:13 am
WarEagle wrote:
setherick wrote:
jgcruz wrote:
SD MFN-7

Approximate Tackles - 220
Approximate Missed tackles - 50

Is the ratio too high? Too low? (This also doesn't take into account where a missed tackled slowed up a runner who was then tackled shortly thereafter.)

Maybe the key is loading up on guys who can tackle. Or putting them in a position, i.e., the proper defense, to make a tackle. Or resting players enough. Lot of variables to consider.


You can't really look at the missed tackles stats because that includes "assists". That's a separate issue.


Yes. The "missed tackles" stat is not accurate. You can't use those numbers for anything. Just like the "targets" and "thrown at" stats. They aren't correct and therefore are meaningless.


How do you know the stats are inaccurate? Did jdavid say that?

Re: Fix Tackling

By setherick
6/04/2016 10:14 am
See thread: https://mfn16.myfootballnow.com/community/thread/1/1088?page=1#6384

Re: Fix Tackling

By WarEagle
6/04/2016 10:35 am
jgcruz wrote:
WarEagle wrote:
setherick wrote:
jgcruz wrote:
SD MFN-7

Approximate Tackles - 220
Approximate Missed tackles - 50

Is the ratio too high? Too low? (This also doesn't take into account where a missed tackled slowed up a runner who was then tackled shortly thereafter.)

Maybe the key is loading up on guys who can tackle. Or putting them in a position, i.e., the proper defense, to make a tackle. Or resting players enough. Lot of variables to consider.


You can't really look at the missed tackles stats because that includes "assists". That's a separate issue.


Yes. The "missed tackles" stat is not accurate. You can't use those numbers for anything. Just like the "targets" and "thrown at" stats. They aren't correct and therefore are meaningless.


How do you know the stats are inaccurate? Did jdavid say that?


Yes.

Also, some of them are pretty obvious when you watch the games.

Have you ever noticed when the QB throws the ball away, the play description still says it was "intended" for someone, even if that player is on the complete opposite side of the field?

When two defenders converge on the ball carrier, only one is credited with the tackle or sack. IRL both may get 1/2 a sack, or one may get an assist. In MFN one gets credit, the other gets a missed tackle.

When a penalty occurs after a turnover, the stats for that play aren't registed at all.

etc, etc, etc

Re: Fix Tackling

By jgcruz
6/04/2016 11:11 am
This much we know.

Some of the missed tackles could possibly be recorded as an assist, meaning a second defender took down the ball carrier with the help of the first defender. We don't know the percentage of missed tackles that should be counted as assists, i.e., the ball carrier was tackled while in or shortly after leaving the grasp of the first defender. This, according to some, renders the missed tackles stat as meaningless.

However, we do know that with regard to missed tackles, the defender did
    NOT
make the tackle on first contact. Meaning that a ball carrier was tackled by the second defender while in the grasp (or after escaping the grasp) of the first defender. In either case, the second defender gets credit for the tackle and the first defender is credited with a missed tackle. Whether the first defender should have gotten credit for an assist depends on what happened after he did NOT make the tackle initially. BUT THE ONE THING WE KNOW IS THAT HE DID NOT MAKE THE TACKLE EVEN THOUGH HE WAS IN POSITION TO DO SO.

Therefore, it stands to reason that the more missed tackles a defender has, the higher the number of opportunities and likelihood for the ball carriers who were not tackled by that defender to gain yards after contact and even break away from time to time. To me, that does not render the missed tackle stat as meaningless.
Last edited at 6/04/2016 11:12 am

Re: Fix Tackling

By jgcruz
6/04/2016 11:41 am
I don't want to oversell the value of the missed tackle stat. But if a team has a higher percentage of missed tackles or a higher gross number of missed tackles than another team, then the first team likely going to give the other team a couple of extra opportunities per game to have a big play. In otherwise evenly matched games, that could be the difference.

Re: Fix Tackling

By setherick
6/04/2016 11:55 am
jgcruz wrote:
I don't want to oversell the value of the missed tackle stat. But if a team has a higher percentage of missed tackles or a higher gross number of missed tackles than another team, then the first team likely going to give the other team a couple of extra opportunities per game to have a big play. In otherwise evenly matched games, that could be the difference.


Of course. But that leads us back to a point I made earlier. The most missed tackles I see come from shrug offs where the RB bounces an LB (usually an LB actually, I see fewer open field missed tackles by safeties) out of his way as he runs for a big gain. This suggests to me that the SP+Break Tackle+Angle formula used to determine if a player can shrug off a tackle greatly outweighs a defenders SP+Tackle formula. Maybe if ST was used in the tackling formula it would help balance things out more. But as far as I know, it's not.

Re: Fix Tackling

By jgcruz
6/04/2016 12:35 pm
setherick wrote:
jgcruz wrote:
I don't want to oversell the value of the missed tackle stat. But if a team has a higher percentage of missed tackles or a higher gross number of missed tackles than another team, then the first team likely going to give the other team a couple of extra opportunities per game to have a big play. In otherwise evenly matched games, that could be the difference.


Of course. But that leads us back to a point I made earlier. The most missed tackles I see come from shrug offs where the RB bounces an LB (usually an LB actually, I see fewer open field missed tackles by safeties) out of his way as he runs for a big gain. This suggests to me that the SP+Break Tackle+Angle formula used to determine if a player can shrug off a tackle greatly outweighs a defenders SP+Tackle formula. Maybe if ST was used in the tackling formula it would help balance things out more. But as far as I know, it's not.


It is an enigma.

Maybe SP in the formula is adjusted for size (downward for the prototypical LB and/or upward for the prototypical ball carrier). That could account for the efficiency of the DBs, who are comparable in size (and therefore have comparable speed ratings). Also, LBs tend to take longer to get to top speed (a function of size again), and typically have shorter distance to travel to contact with a RB and therefore less time to get to top speed, especially if they get tangled up with an OL or TE (acceleration might be as important or even more important for LBs, at least with regard to line play).

Break tackle/Tackle should remain constant, I would imagine.

Angle would be subject to huge variations, with LBs often times moving laterally and DBs not so much (either coming forward or chasing from behind).

On top of that, there are countless other unrelated factors to consider. However, because assists get buried in the missed tackled stats, it is impossible to know whether MFN has too many missed tackles vis-a-vis the NFL.

Re: Fix Tackling

By WarEagle
6/04/2016 12:57 pm
jgcruz wrote:
I don't want to oversell the value of the missed tackle stat. But if a team has a higher percentage of missed tackles or a higher gross number of missed tackles than another team, then the first team likely going to give the other team a couple of extra opportunities per game to have a big play. In otherwise evenly matched games, that could be the difference.


I think we just see this differently. There are a bunch of unknown reasons why a player may be credited with a missed tackle when it is not a negative.

For example, what if two players arrive at the ball carrier simulatneously?

What if the first defender has the player firmly in his grasp and is in the process of taking him to the ground, and the second defender comes in and makes contact just before the ball carrier hits the ground?

Neither of those scenarios is a negative against the first player in my opinion, but giving credence to the missed tackle stat would make it appear so.

On another note, I don't necessarily think that a team that has more missed tackles than another is a bad thing. I would think that a lot of those, if not most, would be because they do a good job of getting multiple defenders in on the tackle.

A team that "gang tackles" a lot is going to have a lot of missed tackles in MFN.

A team that gives up a bunch of wide open 12 yard runs is going to have fewer missed tackles, but I would rather have the former.

Re: Fix Tackling

By jgcruz
6/04/2016 1:17 pm
WarEagle wrote:
jgcruz wrote:
I don't want to oversell the value of the missed tackle stat. But if a team has a higher percentage of missed tackles or a higher gross number of missed tackles than another team, then the first team likely going to give the other team a couple of extra opportunities per game to have a big play. In otherwise evenly matched games, that could be the difference.


I think we just see this differently. There are a bunch of unknown reasons why a player may be credited with a missed tackle when it is not a negative.

For example, what if two players arrive at the ball carrier simulatneously?

What if the first defender has the player firmly in his grasp and is in the process of taking him to the ground, and the second defender comes in and makes contact just before the ball carrier hits the ground?

Neither of those scenarios is a negative against the first player in my opinion, but giving credence to the missed tackle stat would make it appear so.

On another note, I don't necessarily think that a team that has more missed tackles than another is a bad thing. I would think that a lot of those, if not most, would be because they do a good job of getting multiple defenders in on the tackle.

A team that "gang tackles" a lot is going to have a lot of missed tackles in MFN.

A team that gives up a bunch of wide open 12 yard runs is going to have fewer missed tackles, but I would rather have the former.


A team that gives up a lot of wide open 12 yard runs better have good tacklers in the backfield or those 12 yard runs will turn into long gains.

A team that gang tackles well speaks only to their pursuit, i.e., mostly speed. If you stocked your defense with speedy guys (e.g., WRs) who can't tackle, all they'd be able to do is surround a ball carrier that is hard to tackle and perhaps beat him to the end zone, but not stop him from getting there.

All I know is that your teams can tackle well.

Re: Fix Tackling

By King of Bling
6/04/2016 1:34 pm
Tackling is excellent just where it is. I think the ratio is outstanding of tackles and misses. Low tackling means something, as it should, hence a lot of misses by some players.
The tackling mechanism and frequencies in this game are outstanding IMO!