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Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By Brrexkl
8/06/2016 9:00 pm
GrandadB wrote:
Brrexkl wrote:
I explained this already as well.

Because Tennessee values Speed in the Secondary, thus making Seaman unsuitable for SS IN TENNESSEE.

Where as Cincy is going to game plan and package him to not expose (hopefully) his lack of Speed to being exploited at SS.

Moving him to DT was a desperation attempt (and not a bad one) from Tennessee to salvage a 1st Rounder, but Cincy is better that they can put the right Systems in place to hi-light his good things and mask his bad.

Do you intentionally ignore these explanations? I find myself having to give the same ones over and over again.


Again, tell me what effect that has on the trade meter. I dont know is why Im asking. And sorry, I just dont buy the idea about having to salvage a first rounder like Seamens. As far as Tennesee goes, he has a good starting SS with overall rating of 83 and 93 speed, if speed is the most critical factor for SS which I dont think it is. His backup has 78 speed with overall under 50 rating. Lets look at the FS's, both have speed with below average defaults of 63 & 54. How many reading this thread would put an SS at DT instead of FS or used as a nickel back? or as the backup to the starter? Yes, you can trade him, which I would do if I didnt think he was much better than you do, and if I did I would make sure that I was getting first round value in return. How many winning players (conf & league champs) reading this thread base their secondaries on speed alone? OK, you dont have to be a winner, but I would expect experience from 3 seasons or more, and help/advice from friends/players, that a player would improve both in player selection and game strategy. Maybe not, but oh, btw... Seamons overall ratings for FS is 54/87, his key attributes are very impressive, so I just cant buy your theory about why that trade was anywhere near equal value, but thanks for the try. Anyone else care to comment on this trade, good or bad?


Why do you not buy having to Salvage the guy? He likely wasn't showing 65 Speed when Tennessee was Drafting him, he probably 'Busted' in Camp and his Speed fell to an unacceptable (for Tennessee) level for a Secondary. I don't know anyone who INTENTIONALLY Drafts 65 Speed Secondary Players in the 1st Round... to keep them in the Secondary.

So Seaman busted, lost a ton of Speed... Tennessee moved him some where he could be effective, but also a place they had Depth so he could Improve before being counted on.

The guy, as a DE, is comparable to the #2 and #6 Sack Leaders in that League... to guys with 30+ Sacks. Let that sink in, please.

Did you even look into that?

So what is insane about moving a Safety who busted on Speed to a Position where he can Potentially be a Top 10 Pass Rusher for his League? LEAGUE, not Team.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By GrandadB
8/06/2016 9:30 pm
Brrexkl wrote:
Also, if you'd trade for him... why don't you? Send an offer.

But you confuse a few things. Just because Seaman is an 87 as a SS (on what ever Weights are being used for us to see) doesn't mean it's his most Productive Spot.

As a DT he was likely a 5-10 Sack a Year guy, better as a DE but people like DE's to have 85+ Speed, which he lacks.

Look at the League Leaders, you'll find some Low Rated DEs that are Top 10 in their Leagues in Sacks... because the Abilities are in the right places.

In MFN, a 69-70 DT CAN have more production/impact than an 88 SS. You aren't taking that into consideration at all.

For instance, I give you Charles Moore, the RDE from Los Angeles.
2nd in the League in Sacks, with 35. Would you agree 35 Sacks far outweighs what Seaman has done?

His Abilities?
79 SPD 92 ACC 60 STR 77 TKL 86 PASS 100 RUN.
65 SPD 92 ACC 76 STR 76/100 TKL 80/100 RUN
Now let's put Seaman as a DE against that.

Since Seaman is back at SS we can't see his Pass Rush... but everything else is very comparable to the #2 Sack Man in the League, isn't it? He's a little slower, but he's also an equal amount stronger. -14 in Speed but +16 in STR. Even on ACC. And has a chance at 100 TKL, way better than Moore.

Moving Seaman to a position where he could be nearly as Productive as Moore wasn't a stupid thing, but you are railing on it like he'd be MORE valuable at SS simply because of the Overall Rating.

Which is why we've tried to tell you over and over again, that the Overall Rating doesn't really mean much, you have to look at the Player in context.

Because Moore is a 72/75... yet capable of being the #2 Sack Artist in the League even WITHOUT super speed.

Rick Goodall is 6th in Sacks, look at him and tell me Seaman doesn't match up on those Abilities that get him to the QB. Despite being (Seaman) rated Lower at DE, he has the right Abilities to matter for Sack Production.

Now, as a DT he'd likely not get as many Sacks as the DEs... but it doesn't mean he wouldn't be an Interior Pass Rush Force as a DT.

Stop letting an Overall with Weights we have no clue about being applied to it affect your thinking, and actually LOOK at the Player.


Thanks Brex, for taking the time and trouble to go into detail on why someone would put Seamans at DT, I am brand new so yeah, I look at the overalls first, key atts second. But, again, the teams that dominate have a lot of those players with 85+ overall ratings. Was he actually used in the manner you suggested, to get some sacks at DT? Will have to take a look at the stats and see if that correlates. No matter what, thanks again for presenting the counter-side to my thinking and take on the trade, it is a benefit to all those trying to learn the game and get better at it. :) PS... I would still trade for him in a heartbeat! for 2 average levels and my 2nd round. lol I will see if I can get him, then we can really have some fun debating that one. Im still not sure I want to try and compete in that particular league, I got in there by mistake and was not aware of the league "dynamics" and history, like the previous owner dumping the most talented players on the team. It will def be a tough baptism of fire there.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By GrandadB
8/06/2016 9:48 pm
Added note, re Seamans at DT for Tennessee, MFN 19. In his final season with the team, he is listed in the stats as a SS, the last player on defense stat sheet, with one play for the season. So, from that I can only conclude that he was not being used as a DT to generate a few extra sacks.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By Brrexkl
8/06/2016 10:02 pm
GrandadB wrote:
Added note, re Seamans at DT for Tennessee, MFN 19. In his final season with the team, he is listed in the stats as a SS, the last player on defense stat sheet, with one play for the season. So, from that I can only conclude that he was not being used as a DT to generate a few extra sacks.


Here we go, again.

It was already stated that Seaman was the 5th DT, of course he's not going to get Stats as the 5th DT. It's called a 'Project Player' or a 'Development Player', which is what he became when he failed at SS by only having 65 Speed.

How is Seaman going to get snaps over Mark Sharp? Have you looked at him? Dale Annis is a more Traditional DT that is far better than Seaman. Even Walter Wrobel is better (but not likely in 2-3 Years from now, once Seaman has filled in some of his Potential).

He was put into a Developmental Pipeline so he could BECOME a Pass Rushing DT, I merely used that his Base Line Abilities are comparable to the #2 and #6 Sack Leaders in his League, but he's not better than the guys ahead of him so why should he Play ahead of them?

You've really got to try harder, man. A simple look at Tennessee's Roster explains why he was a DT5, Tennessee is loaded with DT Talent, it SHOULD be hard for a Rookie who was Moved to DT to jump in and instantly get playing time.

Those guys are ahead of him on Positional Experience and Play Book, not to mention having 'Fulfilled Abilities' instead of 'Potential Abilities'.

So ask yourself, would you Start Seaman over those other 3 guys? Likely not, and neither did Tennessee.

Sometimes you have to season a player while others are Producing on the Field... but the POTENTIAL was there for Seaman to be a Pass Rush DT, and he was in fact comparable to 2 of the Top 6 Pass Rushing DE to prove that point.

Slow down. Stop, even. Take a break. Then step back, and look at the entire picture. Because you are missing some fairly obvious things here, that really matter and impact the Value of this Trade.

Or maybe that aren't really so obvious and I'm the second coming of some great NFL GM... but them being fairly obvious is far more likely, as I subscribe to Occam's Razor.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By GrandadB
8/06/2016 10:19 pm
Brrexkl wrote:
GrandadB wrote:
Added note, re Seamans at DT for Tennessee, MFN 19. In his final season with the team, he is listed in the stats as a SS, the last player on defense stat sheet, with one play for the season. So, from that I can only conclude that he was not being used as a DT to generate a few extra sacks.


Here we go, again.

It was already stated that Seaman was the 5th DT, of course he's not going to get Stats as the 5th DT. It's called a 'Project Player' or a 'Development Player', which is what he became when he failed at SS by only having 65 Speed.

How is Seaman going to get snaps over Mark Sharp? Have you looked at him? Dale Annis is a more Traditional DT that is far better than Seaman. Even Walter Wrobel is better (but not likely in 2-3 Years from now, once Seaman has filled in some of his Potential).

He was put into a Developmental Pipeline so he could BECOME a Pass Rushing DT, I merely used that his Base Line Abilities are comparable to the #2 and #6 Sack Leaders in his League, but he's not better than the guys ahead of him so why should he Play ahead of them?

You've really got to try harder, man. A simple look at Tennessee's Roster explains why he was a DT5, Tennessee is loaded with DT Talent, it SHOULD be hard for a Rookie who was Moved to DT to jump in and instantly get playing time.

Those guys are ahead of him on Positional Experience and Play Book, not to mention having 'Fulfilled Abilities' instead of 'Potential Abilities'.

So ask yourself, would you Start Seaman over those other 3 guys? Likely not, and neither did Tennessee.

Sometimes you have to season a player while others are Producing on the Field... but the POTENTIAL was there for Seaman to be a Pass Rush DT, and he was in fact comparable to 2 of the Top 6 Pass Rushing DE to prove that point.

Slow down. Stop, even. Take a break. Then step back, and look at the entire picture. Because you are missing some fairly obvious things here, that really matter and impact the Value of this Trade.

Or maybe that aren't really so obvious and I'm the second coming of some great NFL GM... but them being fairly obvious is far more likely, as I subscribe to Occam's Razor.


LOL, maybe we should move this one over to its own thread. Anyone else care to give their opinion on this trade? Anyone else take a first round SS and put him at DT for similar reasons? Anyone else who is dominating their league, undefeated, find a SS like this guy in the same manner or close to it? If you did, cudos. If DE attribute comparisons were the primary reason for that move, wouldnt he be put at DE instead of at the back of the DT's?

He's a solid SS in my opinion, and proving it on nickel defense for the team that got him, thats what I see, and a great job done on getting him for what it cost in the trade. It was a very good trade for an experienced and smart team owner who is dominating that league atm and put a strong player in the right spot. Yes, Tennesee has one of the best SS's in the league, but I would have thought that he could have gotten a lot more out of Seamans by keeping him in the defensive backfield and getting more value for his team in the trade. I may change my mind in a season or two, but that is what makes the most sense to me from a newb perspective. Anyone else care to comment on this trade? and handling of the player in question?

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By WarEagle
8/06/2016 10:28 pm
You can't get too caught up with where a player was drafted, or the overall rating that you see because of your personal weights.

I once drafted a player in the top 5 who dropped 22 points in the first training camp. I never considered him a "first rounder" again.

Also, don't waste your time trying to understand any moves or decisions made by Punisher. No offense to him personally, but he has admitted numerous times that he doesn't know anything about football. I expect a lot of his decisions are just trying any crazy idea he comes up with to see what happens.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By King of Bling
8/06/2016 11:30 pm
GrandadB wrote:
...Im gonna shut up and go back to my huddle.


The silence will be GOLDEN!

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By Brrexkl
8/07/2016 7:06 am
Seaman wasn't moved due to DE considerations. I'm simply showing you comparable DE in the Same League that are highly successful and not highly rated.

He was moved to be a Pass Rush DT... but for Tennessee he is still slow even for that. Like I said, did you look at Mark? He's an 80+ Speed Pass Rush DT. Makes Seaman slow by comparison, doesn't it?

And you keep saying a "SS like this guy"... he's not very impressive as a Safety. That 65 Speed REALLY hurts him. You want to see a GOOD S? Check out Kenneth Fletcher on my Denver Team. THAT is a STUD Safety. Not Seaman.

You are over valuing Seaman because you see a High 80 Rating on him.

He has TONS of potential in Under Zones and covering Slow TE, being used as an 'Extra LB' in the Box style. That's his Role, his Zone, his Niche.

That's where his Value ENDS. He's not an Every Down Defender. You can't use that guy on And Long situations if you want to Cover 2. He turns into a Liability in that case, and he gets torched.

I don't think you realize just how restrictive his 65 Speed is for a player in the Secondary. He's Defensive Line Slow. Yet you think a guy that Runs like Warren Sapp is going to be an All World in the Secondary.

Seaman is only a beast in comparison to the guys he was Traded for... but he STILL brings value in very specific situations.

Stop thinking of the guy like he's Ronnie Lott, because he's not.

There are very few Owners that would Start Seaman at any Secondary spot, because of his Speed.

There are a ton of SMART Owners who would plug him into Goal Line or And Short Situations all day long.

It doesn't matter that he was Drafted in the 1st Round, what matters is that he's only Effective as a "SS in the Box" or a "DE/DT Pass Rusher". That's it. Special Teams maybe.

Yet some how you are viewing him as a Holy Grail of Safeties. He's not. He's just a really nice player in the right Situation. Outside of that... he's rather bad.

Which is okay, because the sam is true of the LT that was Traded for him. The CB was an incomplete player as well, fast but not talented.

Not a single one of these Players is "Good" over all, but all 3 are "Good" in the right situation.

Get the "He was a First Rounder" out of your mind. So was Jamarcus Russel and Ryan Leaf, so was Trent Richardson. Is Trent worth a 1st Rounder just because he was once Drafted in the 1st Round? Obviously not, he can't even make it on a Roster through Training Camp.

I don't know why you can't understand that a 65 Speed Safety in the 1st Round is a BUST as a Safety.

Stop looking at the guy like he's a Top Safety, and you'll start to see why this is actually a Great Trade for both Parties.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By Brrexkl
8/07/2016 7:28 am
I present to you Benny Worrell https://mfn7.myfootballnow.com/player/3956
and William Anderson https://mfn7.myfootballnow.com/player/5950.

Benny Worrell is rated anywhere from 84/84 to 97/98 depending on how much you Weight his Speed (meaning you put the 'QB Stuff' on 100 Weight and you get a 97/98 QB).

95 INT 83 DISC
100 Accuracy 89 Arm Strength
100 Look Off 100 Field of Vision
98/100 Break Tackle 100 Ball Carrying 79/85 Avoid Fumble
69 Hard Count 84 Pass Release 76 Scramble Skill
4 Speed 36 Acceleration 45 Strength.

The dude scored on the Over All really well.

Now William Anderson. Rookie QB. 47/58 Rating.
56 INT 30 DISC
33/65 Pass Accuracy 38 Arm Strength
65/66 Look Off 31/83 Field of Vision
87 Break Tackle 50/74 Ball Carry 34/47 Avoid Fumble
21 Hard Count 63 Passing Release 22 Scramble Skill
98 Speed 30 Acceleration 100 Strength

Benny Worrell has really sweet Passing Abilities. William Anderson is Hot Garbage.

But I'm telling you right now... William Anderson will finish this Season better STATISTICALLY than Benny Worrell... and is already ahead of him.

The 58 is going to Produce on the Field better than the 84. The 58 has really bad QB Abilities and the 84 has really good ones. But William Anderson will be the better QB, despite being garbage. It's going to be close, and it's going to be ugly for both of them... but watch and see.

There is a KEY reason for this, one I didn't find out until I saw it with my very own eyes. I Traded Benny specifically to test this Theory, and Drafted a QB as bad as William Anderson to specifically test this Theory. Through Pre Season and Game 1 it's proving to be True for William, and I had Benny as my Starter for all of Last Season and the same issues seem to exist for him in Washington (so it's not just me failing to Game Plan him properly).

The morale of the story is, you have GOT to let Seaman being a High 80 go. Because he's not going to play as good as his Over All would suggest, and he's likely a better DE than SS despite what the Over All Ratings say.

Which is why your entire premise of why this is a Bad Deal falls apart.

Re: Trying to solve the trade dilemma

By GrandadB
8/07/2016 7:29 am
Your right about the speed factor, but I figured that speed was a lot more important for the corners, and that you could do pretty well with average speed and above average numbers in the other key attributes. Plus the good job he appears to be doing as a nickel bac)k, Im assuming, based on game stats for Cincy. Ive started to look more at SS's on winning teams, and there are a few with speed in the same range (70s), but may make up for it with strong ratings (90+) on both coverages, punish, run def, tackle. I have to say, since yours and others input on this subject, I have def learned a lot, which really helps a new player. I have seen a couple of teams that amazed me how well they did w/o having a load of 85+ ers. It just took me a little while to find em. I apologize for putting you through this grueling debate, but I will save it and pass it on or refer to it for any newbs that want to learn in a hurry. And I would still take the guy for the right trade, lol. good or bad, I have to now, lol. I think Bryson might do it just for the fun and to teach me a lesson. The 30 day non-trade restriction has gotten to me already. Thanks again to you Brex and all who take time to post and contribute to making it that much better. I look forward to playing with you guys.