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Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By setherick
10/14/2018 5:01 pm
0.4.3 has been out for a while now, and people are noticing the changes in game play as a result of it. The version as a whole is not stable, and we're not going to get into the reasons why here. 0.4.4 is in development and will clean up a lot of the problems that cause it to not be stable. So that's good.

What I do want to discuss here is how game has changed some positions and positional game play. Some of these changes were definitely better, some were definitely unexpected.

Quarterbacks

Remember in the 0.4.2 days when the most important QB attribute was Accuracy. The reason why was because you could iso your receivers based on the distance of the play call and the players running the routes.

In 0.4.3, Accuracy is the third most important skill for QBs. Read that again. The third most important skill for QBs.

The reason why is how the QB logic works now:

1) QBs scan the field for open WRs. This scanning places more weight for WRs based on the route distance and play distance, but all WRs are possible targets.

2) The QB determines who to throw to using the Intelligence attribute. There is still some goofiness with with this, but it still makes Intelligence the most important attribute.

3) Field of Vision determines which WRs the QB can see. There is some confusion and some still think that Field of Vision is what determines who the QB will throw to, but it is not. FOV determines the max peripheral vision angle that the QB can see. 100 FOV = 170 degrees of vision. This makes FOV the second most important attribute.

Other important attributes are Passing Release, which determines the time to throw, and Arm, which determines velocity more than it does distance. I'm not completely convinced that Accuracy is more important than Release. I keep going back and forth.

My test QB weights are currently this:

Intelligence - 100
FOV - 66 (2/3 of Intelligence)
Accuracy - 44 (2/3 of FOV)
Arm - 33 (1/3 of Intelligence)
Release - 16 (~1/6 of Intelligence) <-- This one feels low, but I'm leaving it for now. I think it should probably be weighted the same as Accuracy, but I haven't done enough testing.

Speed is EVEN MORE Important for DBs

This was an unexpected change for 0.4.3, so let's discuss a few of the things that 0.4.3 changed. DBs with high B&R can slow down WRs they are covering down the field, which was supposed to help balance out Speed vs Speed rolls in the game. WRs now stutter to break open routes, which was supposed to make that skill more valuable.

Neither of these things work as expected. (Shocking!)

B&R vs SP

Using B&R to slow down WRs down the field breaks down when the DB fails a B&R vs B&R Avoid roll against a WR. At that point, the WR gets behind the DB and "coverage" becomes a game of SP vs SP.

Low B&R DBs are less likely to using B&R at the LOS, which means that you are better off having a DB with a lot of SP and bad B&R since they won't get burned off the line and failing a B&R roll won't matter.

M2M vs SP

Stutter is where SP becomes even more important to DBs. Stutter allows WRs to use their Route Running skills to break open their route. This roll is M2M vs Route Running. If the DB loses the roll, then "coverage" becomes a game of SP vs SP.

This means you're better off having the fastest DB you can. Even if the DB loses all of the M2M vs Route rolls, it won't matter because their SP will allow them to stay close to WRs. They may give up a lot of catches, depending on their other skills, but they also won't allow a lot of big plays.

Here's an example of a 95 SP, 40 M2M player playing above his skill level: https://mfn8.myfootballnow.com/player/8609

My test CB weights are currently this:

SP - 100
M2M, B&R Coverage, Intelligence - 33
AC - 16
Punish Receiver - 8
Last edited at 10/15/2018 1:42 pm

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By Hellbringer
10/14/2018 8:37 pm
So on what do you consider for WR's then? B&R avoid>speed>route running?

If I understand your weights, a WR with high B&R should win more rolls, forcing the DB to have to use speed, correct?

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By setherick
10/14/2018 8:38 pm
Hellbringer wrote:
So on what do you consider for WR's then? B&R avoid>speed>route running?

If I understand your weights, a WR with high B&R should win more rolls, forcing the DB to have to use speed, correct?


Speed 100
B&R and Route 33

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By setherick
10/25/2018 6:06 am
I'm pretty sure that Speed is the only DB attribute used in 0.4.3 now. Let's take a look at these two players:

1) https://usflwfl.myfootballnow.com/player/3267
a) 96 SP, 87 AC, 56 IN, 48 M2M, 16 B&R, 5 Punish
b) 11 Starts (13 games), 51 tackles, 15 KDs, 2 INTs, 41.1% Catch Allowed

2) https://mfn8.myfootballnow.com/player/8609
a) 95 SP, 31 AC, 100 IN, 40 M2M, 76 B&R, 11 Punish
b) 8 Starts (12 games), 35 tackles, 4 KDs, 1 INT, 46.6% Catch Allowed

I play exclusively M2M coverage schemes. Neither of those players, especially #1, should be able to put up the stats they he does if attributes other than SP really mattered, but here we are.

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By Smirt211
10/25/2018 7:38 am
Agreed; especially in the case of Defender #1 with that catch allowed percentage being what it is (too good) compared to the non-existent Punish Receiver and B & R ratings alongside the very low Man-2-Man coverage.

I know with what you were advocating going into 4.3....the B & R rating being what it is should see this CB getting torched.
Last edited at 10/25/2018 7:39 am

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By shauma_llama
10/27/2018 6:28 pm
Does this mean that a DB with a high speed and totally awful stats otherwise is better than a guy with good stats but an above-average but nothing-special speed? Is speed the ONLY stat that matters, or the most important one?

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By setherick
10/27/2018 6:38 pm
shauma_llama wrote:
Does this mean that a DB with a high speed and totally awful stats otherwise is better than a guy with good stats but an above-average but nothing-special speed? Is speed the ONLY stat that matters, or the most important one?


It's not the only thing that matters, but it matters magnitudes times more than any other attribute. A 90 SP, 90+ M2M DB is going to be better than a 95 SP, 40 M2M one. But I'd take a 95 SP, 40 M2M DB over a 60 SP, 100 M2M, 100 B&R one.

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By Lunkan
10/31/2018 9:32 pm
Concerning WR - CB:
Comparing with IRL.
IF I remember corect from watching NFL, it's only allowed to make grabbing shirt type slow down in the first yards (10 ?) . If so I suppouse it's rather easy for a WR to get lose IF he get some time and isn't to weak. And after that a to slow CB have no chance if the WR don't have to slow down or dive to catch the ball. ..
So if I understood the description corect, this seem to be done with GOOD REALISM in the 0.4.3.

Concerning QB:
If the topic starter has assumed corect concerning inteligens contra accurasy (and I have understood corect) that's NOT REALISTIC in 0.4.3. Also before I did read this topic I have reacted several times:
-WHAT?! Why throw pass towards one covered by 2-3, sometimes even 4 defenders, when there is a FREE alternative, who is both closer to the QB and have close to reach 1st down???

And these QBs have high intelligence, but play like that anyway...

If one is covered by several, then there has to be someone free elsewhere :)

Compare:
A genious neard I suppouse have high intelligence, but I suppouse almost all of them have bad accurasy IRL in throwing a ball even if they have good accuracy in their thinking profesion.
=So these neards would be terrible QBs.

While an average intelligent QB with good accuracy would be much BETTER QB than the neard. Even a low intelligent QB with good accuray would be better than the neard, because
the neard would know mostly where to aim at but will MISS the targets :)
while the low intelligent good aiming QB would chose wrong target often, but will chose corect sometimes and REACH some of his targets...
And even imbecill QBs can learn some by heart what the coach tell him, and then that QB can do some good throws WITHOUT thinking :)

So IF accuracy isn't the most important attribute, at least equal to intelligence, then it's unrealistic.

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By shauma_llama
10/31/2018 9:39 pm
Five yards for bump & run. Not sure how much of a part it really plays in the pro game as on t.v. you really don't get to see what the dbs are doing until the pass is almost there. I remember when I went to some games I spent most of my time watching the defensive backs because I'd never really SEEN what they did from the snap.

Re: Player Observations in 0.4.3

By setherick
10/31/2018 10:33 pm
Lunkan wrote:
Concerning WR - CB:
Comparing with IRL.
IF I remember corect from watching NFL, it's only allowed to make grabbing shirt type slow down in the first yards (10 ?) . If so I suppouse it's rather easy for a WR to get lose IF he get some time and isn't to weak. And after that a to slow CB have no chance if the WR don't have to slow down or dive to catch the ball. ..
So if I understood the description corect, this seem to be done with GOOD REALISM in the 0.4.3.


I'm copying what I wrote in the MFN-1 forums when I disagreed with this point before. Basically, I'm of the opinion that anyone that thinks WR vs DB match ups in the NFL are all SP vs SP, then they don't really understand coverage.

setherick wrote:
I disagree with this statement:

I understand coverage to mean you get there quicker cause the wr is rounding off routes/cuts...taking more time to cover the same distance to where the ball is being placed . Plain and simple. All of that matters but not on a fly pattern .


I see coverage as a combination of techniques - cushion, slide, mirror, punch, jam, hand fighting, playing off the hip, angling the receiver inside/outside, and reads. Most of which don't actually require the defensive back to be all that fast - otherwise everyone would have started drafting WRs like Al Davis did. There is a reason why someone like Tim Brown succeeded whereas Darrius Heyward-Bey did not. Brown developed into a fluid route runner and could beat a lot of the jams.

The problem in MFN right now is that all CBs on deep routes open the gate and let speedier WRs run right past them. They don't cushion correctly, until 0.4.3 they were not jamming correctly, they don't slide or mirror off the line to angle the WR inside or outside of the play. This turns most medium and long routes into foot races, which means that all the Al Davis owners out there with the 95 SP WRs with little technique are successful most of the time.